Can Women Be in Ministry?
by Bobby Killmon
Indiana Bible College, Indianapolis, Indiana
Kind: teaching
Scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, Romans 16:1, 1 Timothy 3:11, Acts 6, Colossians 1:7, Colossians 4:7, Romans 16:7, 3 John 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:11, Acts 12:12, Acts 21:8-9, Acts 18:24-26, 2 Timothy 4:19, Philippians 4:2-3, 1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 1 Timothy 3:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:9-10, Deuteronomy 22:5, 1 Timothy 2:11, Titus 1:10-11, Revelation 2:20, 1 Peter 3:3-6, 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, Acts 26, Galatians 3:26-29

Source: https://acts238.life/repository/sermons/bobby-killmon--can-women-be-in-ministry
Published by Acts 2:38 Life from the sermon transcript on that page.
Free to copy and share with attribution.

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To answer questions, I will tell you, this is one of the most controversial topics in the apostolic world. So why not lead with the most controversial topic tonight? Hallelujah. So our first meeting of the year might as well make it worth your money, except we didn't really pay for anything, Holly. All right, so what I wanna do is I will just tell you, let me preface this by saying there are good people that I respect on both sides of this issue. I have good friends of mine who I've been in places and we absolutely disagree on this. We go to the same organizational meetings. We hold the same fellowship card. They are in fact my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love them very much. I disagree with them very much on this subject, but I love them very much. So I wanna talk to you a little bit.

Maybe I can preface this with two things. I was sitting in your seats as a Bible college student. This was the old chapel. And I started writing a book. Unfortunately for me, I had the foresight to ask my wife to read the first thesis paragraph by the place. And I thought I had worked on it. I had distilled it and I had got it. And I was gonna write a book and literally the title is going to be Don't You Know Your Own History, which was a very terrible book actually. And my wife read it, she read the first paragraph and she said, well, if you want them to read the rest of the book, you better rewrite that. And I was like, really? And so I parked that book for seven years and prayed about it and my wife was right. If I, I'm praying about writing a book

I'm trying to write for, we'll see how that goes. And I maybe should concentrate on one, get that one done, it's just a little bit of verse that might help me. But I'm going, I probably would write a book today titled Something Like This. For the Herbs, it's good to see you sir. It's not personal, they just love the Bible. All right, and it shows my own trans, well trans, well, not trans migration, but it shows my own evolution of this kind of approach to this subject because what I was gonna say something, it was something like this with the very stupid kind of crass book I was gonna write the first time is first of all, you don't know biblical history smack and then catch them on the backhand. By the way, you don't even know the history of our own organization smack, you know,

which was stupid and it wasn't gracious and it wasn't Christian. And so thank God for my wife who helped me with that. And so now it's, this is where I finally have landed on that issue. They're wonderful people. We're gonna talk about it tonight if we have enough time that have distanced themselves from literally the feminist issue of the 1960s. And I think we can look at that sociological phenomenon and understand when we went from a large majority of apostolic women in ministry to now having the average age of the licensed minister, if you look at all their average, I know it's Sister Dibble's license, but it's like they're in their, it would be the 70s. So why are women waiting to get licensure very, very late in our organizations? The organizations that are in this room, maybe we'll get to talk about that. I'll end with, or in the introduction with one more story.

I remember I was doing a lesson on this in young adults. It wasn't a very polished lesson. It was just something I felt passionate to do. I did it in our young adult class, I'm wearing my Merc today, did it in our young adult class and it was a lot of fun. They've let the old guy up there, it's awesome. I have a whole lot of fun. And I taught a lesson on how do you make sense of some of the passages we're gonna talk about tonight. When I got done, Sister Katie Collins, and I don't think I'm doing any damage to share this story, but she had already been overseas as an aimer. She had started two preaching points. She was running multiple Bible studies, a phenomenal, phenomenal woman of God came to Calvary Christian School, has a master's degree in teaching, a phenomenal lady.

She is now back at Calvary Tabernacle, helping us in other areas and doing a great job. I don't know what her official title is, Brother Herb's Assistant Principal now at our Christian School. And that is a great boon to us, a great gift to us. We have a lady who has a call to preach clearly in a background in missions as well as education. That was a phenomenal thing for us to scoop up. But after I got done with that short little lesson, hopefully I will do better tonight, she walked up to me and she said, Brother Kilman, I think I can answer the call of God on my life for the first time without feeling conflicted ever in my life. So that's what I wanna try to do. I wanna offer some clarity. I am gonna show you some facts from scripture and then I will feel free to spar with me

if you hold a different position. I would love the interchange and we'll have a good time because we're gonna be Christian. But asking, pointing questions is important. So let's start off with, let me disclose to you what I'm gonna call a very clearly the pattern of scripture. So what's the pattern of the Bible itself, first of all? Number one, women pray and prophesy in church service. When you look at 1 Corinthians chapter 11 verses two through 16, Paul describes what does it look like? Sister Ocelli, for a woman to stand like your sister does over at a pastor's church there on Sunday side drive. What does that look like for them, for her to stand up with authority and either pray or prophesy? Now remember, prophecy is like, that can be a word of faith, a word of knowledge, a word of wisdom. It can also be Paul's very clear in Corinthians.

It can be preaching that's underneath the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and that's considered prophecy as well. All right, so you have number one, women praying and prophesying in a church service. Number two, in Romans 16 one, you have a lady that is mentioned there, her name is Phoebe and she's called a deacon. Now let me give you some information about that. So you have a woman that are deacons. Now what's fascinating is the form that it appears in the Bible is the same form that it's applied to males. Doesn't mean that Phoebe was a male, it just means that she was a deacon and that was in office. So in 1 Timothy 311, Paul goes on to say, as a matter of fact, and your women likewise also, when he's giving the description of a deacon, he's going to show that women deacons also

have to follow this same prescription, which is fascinating. And so the Greek word for deacon and the church at Sincrea shows that she's operating in a special capacity and it's only in that occasion in the Bible where the Greek term is linked with the local church. So it's the first official time we see that title mentioned with the church. Now we can go all the way back to Acts chapter six, but we know Brother Marcus right there is the first name that's attached to deacon, the technical term. Now I'm gonna lay out some, I know it's going to be a little technical, but it'll be okay. Turned to your neighbor and said it'll be okay. Well the third point on that would be this, that the use of the masculine form of diaconan suggests that an office was intended. As a matter of fact, the feminine form of deacon,

deaconess is the way we would translate it, didn't even occur till the fourth century. So this is a technical term that can be translated either minister, servant, or deacon, and that's all a title. Of the three non-apostolic individuals that that's applied to, that same term, two or male, apaphras in Colossians one seven, and ticacus in Colossians four seven, and the other one is clearly female. It's the same term, Roman 16 one, it's the same term for all three. All right, so I'll give you the third category of the pattern of women in the epistles. Hey, maybe we could do this. Who's a good stenographer? Who can be my good record keeper? Who has good penmanship? Brother Gibbs, you wanna come help me? I mean, we can do whatever you wanna do, but just right on the board, that way we can kind of keep track of what this is.

Okay, so number one, women pray and prophesy in the church. Because what we're looking at again is the pattern of scripture. How many of you are apostolic? Then I hope you're apostolic in your, who are you letting your pulpit? Right, and that's pretty pointed, but how many of you wanna be apostolic? What we mean is we wanna do church the way the apostles did. It's not just a brand, Brother Spencer, it's the way the apostles did it, is my prescription. All right, and I can't just be apostolic in my baptism. I have to be apostolic in who I ordain. Okay, and we can talk a lot about that. They prophesied, number two, women are deacons. All right, number three, now here's fascinating. Roman infer... Yes, women, not women, but women are deacons. Okay, sorry, number three, I'm gonna leave it alone. Number three, women are apostles.

So the passage is Romans 16, 7. Paul says, Junior was identified by Paul as an outstanding apostle. How many of you knew there was a lady apostle in the Bible? How many of you go, this is the first time I've heard this, Brother Kilman? It's okay, all right, because we don't normally teach on these things, thus tonight. All right, and number four, they're shown to be pastors. What, in the world? Okay, what does that look like? In second John, the apostle John writes to a... Remember, this is the normal function of a epistle. They didn't have books, they didn't have like dear, so and so, and you look at the end, oh yeah, that's from Sister Savannah. You can flip to the back of it. With the scroll, they would have to roll it all the way out to the end, see who it's from,

then roll it all the way back up. So the salutation of who it's from and who it's to is right there in the beginning of the epistle. If that's not what second John is doing, what you have to describe is why that's different than the normative greeting structure of epistles in the world. Okay, now I know that's pretty strong. So it's common greetings, and so John writes in third John 1.1, the elder, which is his favorite term for himself, the elder unto the well-beloved Gaius. Okay, so it's written his third epistle to Gaius, whom he says I love and the truth. Now in second John, it says the elder to the elect lady and her children. Now all you have to do is read the gospel of John and the epistles of John, and you will figure out very quickly John's favorite word for saints is what?

Children. So he's writing about the church and what people do to try to do hermeneutical gymnastics and contortions to get around that is they will say, well, that's written to the church at large. It's a metaphor for the spiritual church at large. Now the problem with that is the last epistle says your fellow sister and her children salute you. How many churches are there? One. So again, unless you're talking about local congregations, it has to be, there's only one church. So again, that shows that there are lady pastors. As a matter of fact, first Corinthians chapter one, verse 11, as well as Acts chapter 12, verse 12, shows that the house churches where they were meeting was in the houses of Chloe and also the house of Mark's mother. And again, that's to the straightforward interpretation of that is that that's two lady pastors. Number five, you have women prophets, right?

So the daughters of Phillips in Acts 21, verses eight, nine, the daughters of Phillips are prophesying and that means they're not keeping silent in the presence of men. Now you're gonna see what that means when we get to some people's interpretation of 1 Timothy chapter two, right? So they are not keeping silent, they're prophesying in the presence of men. Number six, oh, let's just make an addendum, brother, this is technically their own pastoral teams. So we'll just call that pastoral teams. Thank you, sir. Romans chapter 16, when you look at it, at least 25% of the names mentioned there are female. So in the house churches at Rome, people on the pastoral teams, 25% of that leadership was female. That's a women's liberation movement. And then some other, Lydia was the pastor of the church in her home, as well as Nymphia, Chloé, Eodia, Sintake, all at the churches at Philippi,

they ran churches in their home. I'll give you number seven, they're teachers. That's where you have Priscilla, who's called a teacher and Paul calls her a fellow worker in Christ. So if you're a fellow worker with Paul, that's pretty important. By the way, he says that same term to all sorts of other giants of the faith that help spread the gospel all over the Christian world. All right, and as a matter of fact, in Acts chapter 18, verses 24 through 26, Priscilla is seen as teaching and exhorting a man. I know, radical. Acts chapter 18, verses 24 through 26. All right, and then number eight, Brother Gibbs. Second Timothy 419, Priscilla is mentioned first in Paul's address to both her and her husband. Now it'd be really weird if she had no role in ministry, why is he addressing her first? On top of that, there's a fascinating little thing

that you can see through the book of Acts, where you can just follow it through the book of Acts yourself where you see Barnabas and Paul, Barnabas and Paul, Barnabas and Paul, and then because of the influence of Paul's ministry, all of a sudden, it switches to Paul and Barnabas. So when you see this address to this couple in scripture, it says Priscilla, her first, and Aquila, her husband. And kind of like Brother Mooney said about his mom and father, his mom was really the preacher in the family. Okay, that's all right, you great preachers too, don't you? There'll be people you'd rather hear. And so that goes again to notoriety. And nine, oh no, we've already said that. I'm sorry, a nine would be Philippians four, two through three, verses two through three, show two women evangelists, Eodia and Sintakee. All right, so now what is all of this show,

all of this data? All right, and here's how many of you wanna be biblical? So the clear example of scripture shows that there are women prophets, women apostles, women teachers, women evangelists, and women pastors. Imagine that, the five full ministry. All right, now I know, right? So now with that said, that's the clear biblical kind of paradigm, right? So what do you do with these other portions of scripture, which we're gonna look at tonight and the rest of our time together? What do we do with the plain reading of other passages of scripture? Cause there are issues, if you're gonna support women in the five full ministry, you have to be able to deal with, sister, I'll read all the Bible, right? Not just some of the Bible. You gotta say, if I'm gonna take a biblical position, do we have a divided Bible? I hope not, because if we do,

I might as well go have a party because that's not the word from God. All right, and then thirdly, to ask it more pointedly, is scripture in conflict with itself? And if it is, you just lost revelation. All right, so let's give up, put a little line there, Brother Gibbs, and we'll write on the other side the big passages that we need to look at. All right, the first one is 1st Timothy chapter two, verse 12. All right, I'm gonna read it to you. It says, but I suffer not a woman to teach. Sister Dibble, what are you doing teaching at IBC? Paul says, but I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Everybody say the word of the Lord. It's gotta be a translation issue or something. 1st Timothy 2, 12. All right, 1st Corinthians 14.

1st Corinthians 14, verses 34 and 35. Thank you, sir. 34 and 35. It says, let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. You're like, I don't know what's going on in the church I was raised in. But they are commanded to be under obedience, as also say at the law, and if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in church. Can I get an amen, Brother Justin? Everybody say the word of the Lord. Okay, what do we do with that? I'll give you one more. 1st Timothy 3, one and two. This is, sorry, 1st Timothy 3. Thank you, Brother Gibbs. One and two. This is a true saying. If a man desire the office of a bishop, I wish we had time to deal with it today, but we don't.

If you look at the terms Presbyterias Episcopos and Poima, it is the three kind of ways you speak of a pastor. Pastors only use once in the entire Bible, because we use that term when we can, because it's biblical. But it's probably more appropriate to call your pastor elder, just so you know. Paul said, call Timothy elder. I'm gonna start calling all your elder, just because it makes me feel good about my age, Polly. This is a true saying. If a man offer or a man desire the office of a bishop, he desire the good work. A bishop must be blameless. Everybody say amen. The husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach. Now how in the world can a woman be a bishop if she's gonna be the husband of one wife? Everybody say the word of the Lord.

The word of the Lord. All right, thank you, Brother Gibbs. I think that does force. All right, so let's look at these case studies, because again, we see the clear examples of the New Testament, right? So how do we deal with these scriptures? So in 1 Timothy 2, 9, and 10, let's look at this one first. Because we're gonna set up verse 12, but if you yank this passage out of its context, you can make it say no to women ministry. But when you put it in the flow of the passage, you're gonna see what the apostles is saying. So this is what, I'm gonna give you a little adage for hermeneutics, how to read and interpret the Bible correctly. A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text. Thank you, Brother Brown. All right, good. All right, so let's look at verse nine.

In like manner also, now again, Paul's been talking about the qualifications for leaders, for deacons. And he says, in like manner also. You ready? If a woman wants to be a deacon, that's the flow of the passage. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in what, modest apparel. What's the first issue with the women that he's gonna tell not to preach or teach? They're not wearing modest apparel. With shame-facedness, now the Greek word, now all of y'all have had holiness, you know the Greek word for modest apparel is kadestole kosmu, and stole is a loose, flowing garment. It's the same thing in Deuteronomy 22.5. With shame-facedness, the Greek word is idos. It means with a sense of shame, bashfulness, reverence, and regard for others. It comes from the root word, idos, which signifies turning the eyes, the mind, and the attention to anything.

It means a woman is responsible in the way that she dressed so that she doesn't turn the eyes when she gets up to minister, okay? And sobriety, not with broided hair. Who asked me this wonderful question about broided hair? Oh, we don't have time to deal with it in holiness. It's about weaving jewelry in your hair. It's not braided hair, you got braids today, you're okay. All right, but it's not braided hair. It's like weaving jewelry up in your hair. I wish we had time to deal with that today. How about we don't? Or gold, or pearls, or costly array. Oh, imagine that. Throw away your Versace. But which becomeeth women professing godliness. Good words, that's just extra. All right, now what's Paul dealing with in 1 Timothy chapter two? Remember, Titus is dealing with, or Timothy, rather, is dealing with women that have come out of idol worship.

And those Gentile pagan religions had prostitutes in and around their temples all the time. As a matter of fact, part of worship would be going in and sleeping with some of these high priestesses, or priestesses of these fertility cults. So when they come out of that pagan worship, there was an appeal that they'd been raised with that they appeased the gods, or they excite the gods based on their sexual activity. And if you can get the gods excited, that's gonna spill into creation, it's gonna bless you financially, it'll bless your crops, all those types of weird things. And so when you have people coming out of that background, they dress to arouse the gods. Paul had to tell Timothy, you need to teach him. I love you, I want you to learn in silence. Why? So then you can step forward in the place and begin to teach the right way.

That's why he goes on to say, well, I'll just go ahead. Let me quote Donald Gunthery, because this is not an apostolic author on the pastoral epistles. He says, Paul was shrewd enough to know that a woman's dress is a mirror of her mind. And there's something in her mind, and I'll go further than mine, it's a mirror to her heart and her spirit. And there's some things, Brother Connor, you don't want that spirit being communicated into your church. You want it to be out of a commitment to God, a commitment to holiness, a commitment to truth, and then that spirit that she communicates her ministry out of won't promote the same, you ready? What you put behind there will promote the same spirit out there. And that's the reality of what Paul's addressing. So then that's when you get to 1st Timothy 2.11.

It's about these women with modesty issues, let the woman learn in silence. First of all, learn. She's got to learn in silence for a time and then she can speak, okay? And he says with all subjection. Now we've already seen that in the New Testament, women taught men all over the place. The issue with these specific women is they're out of submission. They're out of their place. They're usurping an authority that's not theirs. They're not qualified to operate in a position of authority and power because they're not in alignment with God. Right? I'll try to behave. Right, so here's what you have to say to women who want to be in ministry. It's okay to want to be in any part of the five-fold ministry as long as you're willing to be modest because you don't want pretenders without power because it'll be like the sons of Sceva

who in the book of Acts said, we adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches to come out of him. The demon possessed people, grabbed the hold of the sons of Sceva, beat them down, ripped their clothes off them and sent them out bruised and naked and ashamed. Why? Because they had no power. They were pretenders because they weren't in alignment. A great little sermon, Joy Haney preached a long time ago. It's a great sermon called, Does Hell Know Your Name? And you ready? Hell doesn't fear your preaching ability or singing ability or your evangelistic ability. And fear any of that. It fears your obedience. Because your obedience brings alignment and that alignment is what keeps you powerful. It keeps you connected to the flow of God's spirit and that anointing doesn't flow sideways to come out and find somebody rebellious. Right? So we'll maybe talk about that a little later.

Right? And then in 1st Timothy 212, that's when you get to the passage. He says, but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man but to be in silence. Now, what does that mean that Paul forgot all of these other practices in the New Testament? No, he's dealing with the same women. Don't pull that out of its context. Let me give you, because some people only respect non-epistolic authors. So here we go. This is by Towner. It's his commentary on 1st and 2nd Timothy on page 77. He says, Paul did not employ his usual term for the normal exercise of authority, exusia. That's the Greek word for exercising authority lawfully. You ready? He says, he chose an unusual word, often tail. It's only used one time in the entire New Testament. Right? And he said that could carry,

and that's the key, can carry this connotation to usurp or misappropriate authority or to domineer. That's why when you read the ESV, I picked on it once today. Why not pick on it tonight too? When the ESV translates that exercise authority, it's wrong. It bends the Greek to the point of breaking why because reformed people don't like women in ministry. Now Paul did, and the rest of the New Testament does. Right? So when you look at that word, you have to say, that's not exusia, it's often tail. All right, let me give you another one, because this is the Greek English lexicon on often tail, page 84. The word translated exercise authority, and it's in ASB, nope. It's have authority, the NIV, nope. Or usurp authority, the authorized version is often tail. It means to act on one's own authority, or to act in an autocratic manner.

That's why it's usurp. Usurp means to take it unlawfully. When she's up there and she's not holy, she's usurping a position of authority she has no right to because she's in rebellion against God. All right, so who does Paul have a problem with? Women with authority issues. All right, I'll give you one more. This is the syntactical construction. Here's some Greek for those of you. How many of you are taking Greek right now? God help you all. I mean, the Lord help you Jesus. All right, it's u d'daskin u d'day al-thintay to teach or usurp authority. And look at what this wonderful admission is in the Greek English lexicon. It requires both d'daskin teach and authentaeo usurp authority to have either both of them gotta be positive or both of them gotta be negative. And clearly Paul's talking about things he has problem with in this text.

And both Titus 1, 10 and 11 and Revelation 220 show d'daskin teach can be negative in connotation when it's not connected with a people of truth. All right, so who does Paul have a problem with? Here in 212, immodest women trying to exercise authority unlawfully. All right, case number two, 1 Corinthians 14, 34 and 35. That your women keep silence in the churches for it's not permitted under them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience as also say at the law. Now, here's the first thing you have to say. You can't find anywhere in the Old Testament. Go look at it, I have. Go look at it. You will never find a prescription in the Old Testament against women speaking in the Tabernacle or Temple ever. What you will find all over the Old Testament are people that are disqualified, women that are being disqualified

for speaking for God because they're not in alignment with God. Right, so what does that mean? Let me give you the interpretation affirmed by Apostolic doctrine by the Apostle Peter. First Peter chapter three versus three through six, he says, whose adorning let it not be with the outward adorning of the plating of the hair, of the wearing of gold and the putting on of apparel but let it be of the hidden man of the heart and that which is not corruptible even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit which is in the sight of God a great price. Now notice what the Apostle Peter says. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also who trusted in God adorned themselves being in subjection to their own husband. They ain't trying to catch somebody else's eye. Even as Sarah obeyed Adam calling him Lord

and my wife calls me Lord all the time. She calls me good too. Mostly together good Lord, you know. But he says even as Sarah obeyed whose daughters ye are as long as ye do well. You're the daughters of Sarah. You're the daughters of promise as long as you do well. How do I do well? I dress holy. Just like holy women of old. So like 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 the topics that the Apostles addressing is order and submission in prayer and prophesying in the church. All right so why would Paul spend so much time almost 16 verses talking about when you ladies stand up to pray and prophesy in the church your hair has to be right. Why would he spend that much time if he was just gonna forget what he said and command you all to be silent in the church

in verse 14 or chapter 14. Did that miss something? All right so again what does that mean? It means now what is the problem in 1 Corinthians 14? It's 1 Corinthians chapter 11. It's women who are refusing to be under subjection to the direction of God with their hair. And again it's a pretender without power. It's someone usurping a position of authority that's not under submission to God but if her dress is right and her hair is right guess what she's okay to stand up and prophesy and pray in the church service. And again those women need to learn in silence and Paul was so fed up with the people the women that he was fighting a little bit at Corinth at the church at Corinth and he says by the way if they have any more questions they can ask their husband at home

I'm done talking about this. He says if any man be contentious the Greek word is a fight lover. If anyone loves to fight over this issue I'm done talking with him. He says there's no other practice for the herbs in all the churches of God but this. So it was a universal apostolic practice that they were rebelling against but they still wanted to get up in the pulpit. Be careful what you put in the pulpit. Okay, all right that case study number three and we're almost done. Look at that the Lord is good. How many minutes do we have? Eight minutes I can do it. All right so case study number three first Timothy three, one and two. What is going on here? How can a woman, because we've seen clear examples of women as pastors, how can they be the husband of one wife?

All right so it's like this. It's like somebody preaching about preachers and I say a young man if you're gonna do this or preacher you better do this and he better do that. Does that mean I don't believe in women preachers? No, it means if you're speaking of a singular with a collective whole in mind you just use usually the masculine. How do you respect the feminist? I know 10,000 Frenchmen just threw their purses down they're so mad at me. If you're from France I'm sorry. It was a joke. All right so what does that mean? Now what you have to do is you have to say let's keep the consistency of the interpretation of this text. So if they have to be the husband of one wife first of all if a bishop has to be male and it can't be like a,

it can't mean something like this. It just means they have to have fidelity in marriage. Then you have to start asking harder questions. Like this, okay if a bishop has to be the husband of one wife does that mean they have to be married? Now if you're gonna interpret that in a rigid way it doesn't mean that if they have a wife they can only have one. No, no he has to be the husband of one wife. Now if you're gonna interpret that and I'm not, or not interpret, yeah I interpret it not translated we translate literally Brother Marcus we interpret in the pulpit. What does it mean? Does it mean that they have to be male? Well then it means it has to be a married male. Ruling his own house well, having his children and subjecting. Now he has to have children not child, children.

Okay and then he has to be the husband of one wife. Does that mean if his wife dies he can't ever be married again? Let's just say he's a pastor. Something tragically happens like a wonderful pastor. I got to know while I was in Mississippi Brother Robbins and his wife passed away. Is he no longer qualified to be the bishop the pastor of that church? I don't know anybody that tries to apply this this way this rigidly except for the male thing. The only one I know except I was gonna say one exception Wayne Grutemann cause he's crazy. And he says all of those things it has to be a husband, it has to be the husband of one wife it can't be remarried, it can't be widowed and they have to have children, multiple children. And he says that looks like to me it's God saying

then they're qualified to manage the house of God because they know all those dynamics. I just have a problem with Mr. Grutemann. I would just say this. Okay Paul started the church at Corinth. He was the pastor, right? And Apollos followed and then other leadership. And look at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, 8, 9. I say therefore unto you that I'm married in the widows cause he's writing to the Corinthian church. He started in pastors. I'm saying this to the unmarried and the widows it is good for them to abide even as I. Paul was single. I have a question for you. Could Paul pastor your church? Not Wayne Grutemann's. And remember he was a member of the Sanhedrin. It required people to be married in Acts 26th Ann. We see him before his conversion casting his vote against Christians. So he was a voting member of the Sanhedrin by the Herbs.

He had to be married then. So what happened to his wife? I don't know. She either died or she dumped him when he became a Christian. I see only two options. And that's what he talks about in Corinthians. And so you have to say if Paul couldn't pastor your church I think you got a problem. That means your interpretation of 1st Timothy chapter three is wrong. It means if you need to be have fidelity in marriage you need to make sure that your children you teach them the truth. Because if you don't teach your kids the truth if you have them how can you teach anybody else? All right so here's the conclusion. Scripture is very clear in its paradigm of imagery. The problem texts don't become a problem when you start looking at them in their context. And so I think the scriptural issue

is very, very, very clear. So let me just point out something very quickly. The history of the United Pentecostal Church is fascinating. I know we have some wonderful ALJC students in here. I think we have some WPF and some UAC of JC and even some GIBs, good independent brethren. So but if you're in the UPC or affiliated with the UPC church raise your hand real quick. All right so that's a lot of us. Okay so let me just remind you of the history of the United Pentecostal Church. At the time of the merger I think it's in 1946 if I remember the date right by the herbs. At the time of the merger over 50% of our missionaries were women. And over 30% of our pastors were women. I know right? So what happened? Well first of all the witness of all of Scripture is clear

and we don't have a divided Bible and we see the unified voice of Scripture. What happened in the 1960s is people started looking at these texts and looking at the horrific nature of feminism and said we are not going to be that. Good apostolic women with the call to preach started calling themselves speakers. And they said I am not going to be that feminist nonsense. Thank God. We don't need apostolic feminists. We have enough of that nonsense going on in the world that's trying to promote. Well you get the point. Holly I'll leave that alone for sociology. Holly. And then and you ready? So there were good men that said we won't support that. And we made a reaction against the biblical paradigm. And we swung that pendulum too far the other way. And I'll tell you the reason why the median age of women being licensed is somewhere

between 60 and 70 years old. Brother Herbst it's because they feel like they have to be a rock star to face their licensing board in the United Pentecostal church. Because they're afraid of hearing no because you're a woman. Because they put up with so many hurdles already. When a young man says he has a call to God on his life what we say is we see those giftings. We see that intimation. We say brother Roberto you have a wonderful touch of God on that have you thought about preaching. We wait for women to come talk to us. So that's a challenge just for you to kind of pick up. I'll close with this. The beautiful imagery of Galatians 3 26 through 29 Apostle Paul says for you all you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. How many of you believe in Jesus?

So you're the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus for as many as you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. How many of you have put on Christ? You've been hidden him. Okay then you ready? Look at what he says. There isn't either Jew nor Greek. Doesn't matter if you're a Jewish person if you came from those that were near the Old Testament prophecy says or those that are far. He's made of the twain one new man doesn't matter if you were near and you were Jewish people you needed to accept Jesus or if you're far like us Gentiles you've been united into the body now because you've accepted Jesus. There's neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither bond nor free. It doesn't matter about your social status what side of the tracks you come from. You ready? There is neither male nor female

for you are all one in Christ. So if you're a preacher you just happen to be male or female but you're a preacher first. That's why I appreciate Sister Galleon and Sister Rodenbush they were at a particular conference and there was a what I would consider an apostolic feminist which is an oxymoron because that's no apostolic. And they said that she was really berating IBC like IBC has always been known as a supporter of women in ministry. I'll behave, hallelujah. And so people well I'll just let me Jesus to stay on track. So what is it? So they said well look at you don't even have a women's preacher class. I'm like why would we have a women's preaching class? It's sexist in and of itself. Why? Because you're all preachers. I remember in young adults one time I said to the group under Brother Vargas

I said they said we're gonna do a worldview series it was so fun. I love the leadership of Brother and Sister Vargas. I still miss them they were phenomenal. We've had great leadership I brought the Lopez and now the Brzezinski's we're doing really well but I'm enjoying myself with the herbs. But I remember they said we're gonna do a worldview series we're gonna talk about this and this and we're gonna do Biblical masculinity and Biblical femininity. I said I wanna do Biblical femininity. And they were like ha ha ha ha ha. And I was like and I wanna do it because you all laughed. Because what you have to remember is Biblical femininity is from the revelation of scripture. Experience is not keen that's a post-modern fallen concept because they're gonna look at some of you ladies who haven't tried to go live sexually

and say all you got to say about sexuality is like the drug promo just say no that's about all your experience. Experience is not keen. I don't have to slam my car into a tree as a half conscious drunk to know that drunk driving is stupid. You ready and neither do you if you wanna teach on Biblical masculinity or Biblical femininity the thing that we use is revelation. And so you are a preacher who has a book period and then after that you're male or female. All right so we can all just do work and learn. Okay now it's probably hard to ask questions after that especially if you disagree but I encourage you to do so. How many minutes do we have left?