Transcript of a published teaching by David K. Bernard, transcribed from YouTube. An attributed primary source — not Acts 2:38 Life doctrine text.
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Summary
Summary prepared by Acts 2:38 Life from the transcript below — the preacher’s words follow in full.
The Ultimate Answer Is Yes — but It's the Wrong Frame
- The question posed: a listener wanted to know: are there any absolute heaven-and-hell rules — what we might call standards? The question comes up when holiness is discussed. How have you responded in the past when somebody has asked you that question: is this a heaven or hell issue?
- Well, the ultimate answer is yes. But I think probably this is not the best way to frame most questions. You could say: if you worship idols, is that a heaven or hell issue? If you commit adultery, and live in adultery, is that a heaven or hell issue? I mean, every Christian of every denomination will say yes: there are some heaven-or-hell issues. But for most decisions in life, that's not the best way to start. So ultimately, I would say: there's a final judgment; there's a heaven to gain; there's a hell to shun. So in the end, the answer is yes.
- But let me just give you some illustrations, to show you. Marriage: we're supposed to be married for life, until death parts us. So every marriage is going to either end in death, or it's going to end in divorce. So would you frame every decision: 'Okay, how should I treat my wife today? Is this a marriage-or-divorce issue?' If I verbally abuse her, does she have a right to divorce? If I physically abuse her, does she have a right to divorce? I would say she does have a right to leave. But my point is: it's unprofitable to say, 'Well, I'm going to neglect my wife today; I'm going to choose my priorities, and she can just suffer for a while; it's not going to end in divorce, so therefore I'm free to do whatever I want to do, because she can't divorce me.' That's not a very good way to have a good marriage. And ultimately, when you act that way, it could end in divorce. Or let's say: would you say that eating nutritious food, and eating food at all — is that a life-or-death issue? Yes: if you don't eat, you're going to die. So parents, should they tell their children: 'Look, you better eat supper, or you're going to die; you better eat your vegetables, or you're going to die'? Well, that's actually not true. But in the long run, if they consistently refuse to eat, they're going to die; if they consistently refuse to eat healthy food, they're going to impact their health, and die sooner. So in the big picture, eating is a life-or-death issue — but that doesn't mean every intermediate decision should be framed like that.
- Or let's take a spiritual example: is it necessary to attend a church faithfully? Yes: the book of Hebrews says, 'Don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together.' So I really disagree with what some people think, that they can just be an anonymous Christian. Now, if they're a shut-in, or if they're in an access-challenged nation, you know, God's grace will help. But for the normal situation, if you say, 'I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church; I don't have a pastor; I'm not submitted to any local church — can I be saved?' I would say: no. In the end, no, you're not going to be saved. But does that mean I, as a pastor, get up and say: 'Look, if you miss church Sunday, you're going to hell; you better be here at church Sunday morning, or you're going to hell'? It might be advisable for them to go to church; it might be wrong — but can I say that's a heaven-or-hell issue? So in the long run, failing to attend church, failing to submit to godly leadership, failing to follow the teachings of scripture — yes, that's going to be a heaven-or-hell issue. But that doesn't mean I should frame every decision that way, as an ultimate issue. So that's why I think, when you're talking about the teachings of practical holiness, that's really not the way you should start. Instead, here's how you start: two things.
Scriptures: Hebrews 10:25
First: Saved by Grace through Faith, Not by Rules
- First of all, we're saved by grace through faith — Ephesians 2:8-9 — not of works. So any orientation that says: if I do these certain things, I get saved; if I miss one of these things, I go to hell — I think you're starting from the wrong premise. Living for God, the life of holiness, is not about: I do a hundred things — if I go to church faithfully, if I don't smoke, if I don't drink, if I don't cuss, if I wear modest clothing, therefore I get to go to heaven. You can't be saved by your works. First of all, you had to be born again — but even after that, it's your life of faith. There are very strict people who deny themselves, or follow strict rules of modesty, and various things, like no smoking, no drinking. Muslims have strict rules; the Amish have strict rules — but those rules don't save them.
- Let's take: we teach women should let their hair grow long; they shouldn't cut it. But a woman comes to the church; she has very short hair; it's obviously not following any teaching of scripture. She repents of her sin; she receives the Holy Spirit; we baptize her. We believe she's born again. It may take months for her hair to grow out: is she going to hell all during that time? No. On the other hand, let's say there's a godly woman, raised in church; she's never cut her hair. I say a godly woman — but what if she starts getting involved in hatred, bitterness, jealousy, pride, prejudice, gossip, tailbearing, strife? Is she going to heaven? She has long hair; maybe she's following all objective standards. (I don't even use the word standards, because I think it's ambiguous: I want to focus on scriptural teachings, and applications of scriptural principles.) So I would say: that woman — no, she's not saved. So just trying to frame every decision as a heaven-or-hell issue, without regard to the bigger picture, is a misunderstanding. So I think, first of all: we have to see we're saved by faith. If we're going to be saved, it's not by keeping rules; it's by our relationship of faith in Jesus Christ. And if we're going to be lost, it's not just because we broke a rule; it's because we've walked out of faith in Jesus Christ.
- However, I would hasten to add: if we truly love the Lord, faith issues forth in obedience. It's an oxymoron to say, 'I'm a disobedient believer — I'm a believer, but I don't obey.' I think I've discussed it in previous podcasts, both talking about salvation and the life of holiness, that in the Bible, faith is not what you profess, or even what you mentally acknowledge: faith is what you obey. Faith is only real in the act of obedience; as you follow, you're showing what you really believe. And so, from that perspective: of course, every one would say — every Christian, if they're honest, would say they have sinned since being saved. But we do go to God in prayer; we ask God to forgive us, and God forgives us. But normally, we can live an overcoming life; we can live in holiness; we can make good choices every day, and by the power of the Spirit, we can resist temptation; we can live for God. But we're doing so as a life of faith. So if we persistently live in known sin — is that faith? I would argue scripturally: no. So the fact that you're doing this certain sin, or not doing a command of God — that one act, it's not about, 'Well, you broke the rules, you're going to hell'; it's that you're no longer living in faith; you're no longer in a relationship of faith. Well, if you're saved by grace through faith, and you're living by faith — Romans 1:16-17: we go from faith to faith; the just shall live by faith; the righteous live by faith — so if you're telling me, 'I'm not living by faith,' then you're telling me, 'I'm not in a saved condition.' So it's not the fact that you're breaking the rule; it's the fact that you have stepped out of faith.
Scriptures: Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:16-17
Second: Love Goes Farther than the Law
- Now, the other way to look at this is love. Jesus said in John 14:15: 'If you love me, keep my commandments.' So again, in the biblical sense, if you truly love God — which is what we're called to do; you know, that's the first commandment of all, which Jesus reiterated: there's one God, and you're to love God with all your being; that comes first — well, love issues forth in obedience, as Jesus said: 'If you love me, you're going to keep my commandments.' Love causes us to go much farther than the law could do.
- I've used the example of marriage: the law says, don't commit adultery. That's an absolute law: if you break that law, it's highly likely you're going to destroy your marriage, and certainly you're violating God's will for marriage. But what if you never commit adultery, but you're very insensitive, hateful, maybe emotionally, verbally, even physically abusive? Technically, you haven't violated the law; you could say, 'I've kept the law.' But if you approach it from the point of love — I love my spouse — then obviously, love causes you to do much more than the law could ever require. Not only would it help you avoid adultery, but it would cause you to love, cherish, care for; not be physically, verbally, or emotionally abusive; but do things that you're not required to do, but you do it for the sake of your spouse — even things you don't necessarily want to do, but you gladly do it, because it makes your spouse happy.
- And so I've used the illustration: if my wife says, 'This tie doesn't match; don't wear it again' — I'm not going to wear it again. Even if you say, 'Hey, it's great' — I don't really care about you; I don't have to live with you. But my wife is the one I love, and so I'm going to prefer her over everybody else. I'm not going to say: 'I have a right to what I want; the marriage vow didn't say that I had to submit to your every wish; so you can't divorce me over this; therefore I insist on doing what I want to do.' That would not be a very healthy attitude toward marriage, especially as extended. It's the same way with loving God. And if you say, 'Well, you know, I think I could do this, and still be saved; it's not a heaven-or-hell issue' — but if God says that it's not a good thing, that should end the discussion.
Scriptures: John 14:15
Playing Games with Rules: The Legalism Trap
- And I've heard this used sometimes in 1 Corinthians 11, talking about hair: it never says it's a sin. So it says: if a man has long hair, it's a shame; if a woman cuts her hair, it's a shame; but if she has long hair, it's a glory. So I've actually had some people say: 'Well, if I want to bear the shame, let me bear the shame; if I don't want the glory, I don't have to have the glory.' And I say: but you're playing games; you're playing as if the Bible is a book of rules. And here's the problem with that approach: that's legalism; that's living by rules and regulations. You can't be saved by living by the law. Now, when it comes to paying my taxes, I'm a strict legalist: in other words, I do want to pay my taxes, because the word of God tells me to, and I also don't want to get in trouble. So I'm going to pay what I owe. But if there's a provision where I can legally get out of paying something, I'm going to take that provision, and that loophole. I'm not going to say: 'Well, I love the government so much, I'll just round up, and pay more.' No: I'm going to be a legalist; I'm going to pay the minimum requirement. But when it comes to serving God, I have a problem with these rules: 'Well, is that a heaven-or-hell rule? Is that a heaven-or-hell standard?' The implication is: if it's not, I'm free to do it.
- So that would be like saying: 'Well, is it a heaven-or-hell issue that I come to church Sunday? No: I think I'll just skip; I have other things I want to do; I'll just skip this Sunday; I'll skip next Sunday; oh, I'll come the Sunday after that, just to keep in touch — because it's not heaven or hell, right?' You can justify yourself in doing anything. Or say: the Bible does teach to wear modest clothing. So the pastor says: make sure your dress is modest. So maybe a woman says: 'Well, I'm going to do a half inch above that. Am I going to hell? Am I going to hell over a half inch?' And her friend says: 'Well, if you're not going to hell, I'm going to go a half inch above that.' You could argue your way out of any specific teaching. And you might say: whenever you apply the teaching of scripture, there's always some what you might call arbitrary line — because the Bible doesn't say exactly how long your dress would be, before it's considered immodest, or whatever. But at some point, you're evading the rule.
- So the solution to that is not to ask, 'Is this heaven or hell?' but to ask: 'Is this pleasing God? Is this what love would say? Is this the best way to fulfill my relationship with God? Is this the best way to be an example to my kids, to the youth of the church, to the new converts, to the world that's looking for the church to be an example, to be different?' And so I think, for most of these issues, we should not say it's heaven or hell; we should say: are we living by faith? Are we living by love? And if this choice is not living by faith, or we're not going to the higher standard, or the higher teaching of love — then we shouldn't be doing it. So we never get to the bottom line: 'Well, am I going to hell if I do this?' We've already answered the question: faith tells me what to do; love tells me what to do; and then I don't have to go any further.
Scriptures: 1 Corinthians 11
Leave the Verdict with God — and Never Presume
- But if you are pressed to that point, I would say: thankfully, a lot of things I'm happy to leave in the hands of God — because God will evaluate each person's life, their background; he knows how far they've come, and where they're going. So I'm happy not to have to judge everything as heaven and hell. But I do believe our consequences will ultimately end with one place, or the other. So I would answer the question with a question: Are you living by faith? Are you obeying the will of God, as you know it? Are you obeying the scripture? If the answer is no, you're not living by faith. If you're not living by faith, where does that put you? You answer that question. And I think that's the best way to address these issues.
- So what we need to say — because this question can also have the implication of minimizing: certain things are necessary to follow; certain things are optional to follow. Well, I don't think we should regard anything in the word of God as optional to follow. So I think we should take the word of God seriously, and live by faith, which causes us to obey; live by love, which causes us to rise higher than what we might regard as minimum requirements. And then this question becomes purely academic: we don't have to worry about it. In the ultimate analysis, all these choices could end up flowing into a heaven-or-hell situation. But thankfully, in many individual cases, God is merciful and gracious, and will give us time to repent, or time to understand, time to realize the significance of our choices. But we should never presume on the grace of God. We should simply live by faith, live by love, and live by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Scripture index: Hebrews 10:25; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:16-17; John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 11.
Transcript
Well the ultimate answer is yes. But I think probably this is not the best way to frame most questions. So I mean you could say if you worship idols is that a heaven or hell issue? If you commit adultery and live in adultery, is that a heaven or hell issue? I mean every Christian of every denomination will say yes. There are some heaven or hell issues. But for most decisions in life, that's not the best way to start. So ultimately, I would say there's a final judgment. There's a heaven to gain. There's a hell to shun. So in the end, the answer is yes.
But let me just give you some illustrations to to show you. So marriage uh we're supposed to be married for life until death parts us. So every marriage is going to either end in death or it's going to end in divorce. So you might would you frame every decision okay how should I treat my wife today? Um is this a marriage or divorce issue? So if I'm verbally abuse her, abuse her, does she have a right to divorce? If I physically abuse her, does she have a right to divorce? I I would say she does have a right to to leave. But my point is, it's unprofitable to say, well, uh, I'm going to neglect my wife today.
I'm going to choose my priorities and she can just suffer for a while. It's, you know, that's not going to end in divorce. So therefore, I'm free to do whatever I want to do because she can't divorce me. you know, if I displease her, if I don't do what she wants, so what? Uh, that's not a very good way to have a good marriage. And ultimately, when you act that way, it could end in divorce. Or or let's say, would you say that um eating nutritious food and eating food at all, is that a life or death issue? Yes. If you don't eat, you're going to die.
So parents, should they tell their children, "Look, you have better eat supper or you're going to die. you better eat your vegetables or you're going to die. Well, that's actually not true. But in the long run, if they consistently refuse to eat, you're going to die. If they consistently refuse to eat healthy food, they're going to impact their health and die sooner. So, in the big picture, eating is a life or death issue. But that doesn't mean every intermediate decision should be framed like that. Uh or or let's take a spiritual example. Is it necessary to attend a church faithfully? Yes. The the book of Hebrews says, "Don't forsake the assembling of yourself together." So, I really disagree with what some people think that they can just be an anonymous Christian.
Now, if they're a shutin or if they're in a access challenge nation, you know, God's grace will help. But for the normal situation, if you say, "I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church. I don't have a pastor. I don't I'm not submitted to any local church. Can I be saved?" I would say no. In the end, no, you're not going to be saved. Uh, but does that mean I as a pastor get up and say, "Look, if you miss church Sunday, you're going to hell." Well, it might be advisable for them to go to church. It might be wrong, but can I say that's a heaven or hell issue.
You better be here at church Sunday morning or or you're going to hell. That's a heaven or hell issue. So in the long run, failing to attend church, failing to to submit to godly leadership, failing to follow the teachings of scripture, yes, that's going to be a heaven or hell issue, but that doesn't mean I should frame every decision in the way as an ultimate issue. So that's why I think it's when you're talking about the teachings of practical holiness, that's really not the way you should start. Instead, here's how you start. Two things. First of all, we're saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2 8-9, not of works.
So any orientation that if I do these certain things, I get saved. If I miss one of these things, I go to hell. I think you're starting from the wrong premise. Uh living for God, the life of holiness is not about I do a hundred things. If I go to church faithfully, if I pay my ti, if I don't smoke, if I don't drink, if I don't cuss, if I wear modest clothing, therefore I get to go to heaven. You can't go be saved by your works. First of all, you had to be born again. But even after that it's your life of faith. There are very strict people who who deny themselves or follow strict rules of modesty um and various things like no smoking, no drinking.
You know, Muslims have strict rules. The Amish have strict rules, but those rules don't save them. And let's take we teach women should let their hair grow long. They shouldn't cut it. But a woman comes to the church, she has very short hair. It's obviously not following any teaching of scripture. She repents of her sin. She receives the Holy Spirit. We baptize her. Um, we believe she's born again. It may take months for her hair to grow out. Is she going to hell all during that time? No. On the other hand, let's say there's a godly woman raised in church. She's never cut her hair.
I say a godly woman, but what what if she starts getting involved? Hatred, bitterness, jealousy, pride, prejudice, gossip, tailbearing, strife. Is she going to heaven? She has long hair. Maybe she's following all objective standards. I don't even use the word standards because I think it's ambiguous. Um I'm want to focus on scriptural teachings and applications of scriptural principles. So I would say that woman, no, she's not saved. So just trying to frame every decision uh as heaven or hell issue without regard to the bigger picture is a misunderstanding. So I think first of all, we have to we're saved by faith. If we're going to be saved, it's not by keeping rules.
It's by our relationship of faith in Jesus Christ. Um, and if we're going to be lost, it's not just because we broke a rule. It's because we've walked out of faith in Jesus Christ. However, I would hasten to add, if we truly love the Lord, faith issues forth in obedience. Uh, it it's an oxymoron to say, "I'm a disobedient believer. I'm a believer, but I don't obey." I I think I've discussed it in previous podcasts both talking about salvation and the life of holiness that in the Bible faith is not what you profess or even what you mentally acknowledge. Faith is what you obey. Uh you disciplehip is only and faith is only real in the act of obedience.
So as you follow you're showing what you really believe. And so from that perspective, of course, I think every one would say, every Christian, if they're honest, would say they have sinned since being saved. And but we do have we go to God in prayer. We ask God to forgive us and God forgives us. But normally, we can live an overcoming life. We can live in holiness. We can make good choices every day and by the power of the spirit, we can resist temptation. We can live for God. But we're doing so as a life of faith. So if we persistently live in known sin, is that faith?
I would argue scripturally no. So the fact that you're doing this certain sin or not doing a command of God. That one act, it's not about, well, you broke the rules, you're going to hell, it's that you're no longer living in faith. You're no longer in a relationship of faith. Well, if you're no longer in a relationship of faith, what does that say about your salvation? If you're saved by grace through faith and you're you're living by faith, uh Romans 1:16-17, we go from faith to faith. The just shall live by faith. The righteous live by faith. So if you're telling me I'm not living by faith, then you're telling me I'm not in a saved condition.
So it's not the fact that you're breaking the rule, it's the fact that you have stepped out of faith. Now the other way to look at this is love. Uh Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So again, in the biblical sense, if you truly love God, which is what we're called to do. Um you know, that's the first commandment of all which Jesus reiterated. There's one God and you're to love God with all your being. That comes first. Well, love issues forth in obedience as Jesus said, "If you love me, you're going to keep my commandments." Love causes us to go much farther than the law could do.
I I've used the example of marriage. So the the law says don't commit adultery. That's an absolute law. If you break that law, it's highly likely you're going to destroy your marriage and certainly you're violating God's will for marriage. But what if you never commit adultery, but you're very insensitive, hateful, maybe emotionally, verbally, even physically abusive? Technically, you haven't violated the law. You could say, "I've kept the law." But if you approach it from the point of love, I love my spouse. Then obviously love causes you to do much more than the law could ever require. Not only would it help you avoid adultery, but it would cause you to love, cherish, care for, not be physically, verbally uh or or emotionally abusive, but do things that you're not required to do, but you do it for the sake of your spouse.
even things you don't necessarily want to do, but you gladly do it because it makes your spouse happy. And so, I've used the illustration, if my wife says, you know, this tie is a match and don't wear it again. I'm not going to wear it again. Even if you say, hey, it's great. I don't really care about you. I don't have to live with you. But my wife is the one I love. And so, I'm going to prefer her over everybody else. I'm not going to say I have a right to what I want. The marriage vow didn't say that I had to submit to your every wish.
So, you can't divorce me over this. therefore I insist on doing what I want to do. That would not be a very healthy uh attitude toward marriage, especially as extended. It's the same way with loving God. And if you say, well, you know, I think I could do this and still be saved. It's not a heaven or hell issue. But if God says that it's not a good thing, that should end the discussion. And I've heard this used sometimes in first 1 Corinthians 11 talking about hair. It never says it's a sin. So it says if a man has long hair, it's a shame. If a woman has cuts her hair, it's it's a shame.
But if she has long hair, it's a glory. So I've actually had some people say, "Well, if I want to bear the shame, let me bear the shame. If I don't want the glory, I, you know, don't have to have the glory." And I say, "But you're playing games. You're playing as if the Bible is a book of rules." And here's the problem with that approach. That's legalism. That's living by rules and regulations. You can't be saved by living by the law. Now, when it comes to paying my taxes, I'm a strict legalist. In other words, I do want to pay my taxes because God, the word of God tells me to and and I don't also don't want to get in trouble.
So, I'm going to pay what I owe. But if there's a provision where I can legally get out of paying something, I'm going to take that provision and that loophole. I'm not going to say, "Well, I love the government so much, I'll just round up and pay more." Maybe it's not necessary, but maybe it is. So, I'll just always go with whatever the government wants and I'll pay more. No, I'm going to be a legalist. I'm going to pay the minimum requirement. But when it comes to serving God, I have a problem with these rules. Well, is that a heaven or hell rule? Is that a heaven or hell standard?
The implication of is if it's not, I'm free to do it. So, that would be like saying, well, is it a heaven or hell issue that I come to church Sunday? No, I think I'll just skip. I don't I have other things I want to do. I'll just skip this Sunday. I'll skip next Sunday. Oh, I'll come you know the Sunday after that just to keep in touch because it's not heaven or hell, right? You know, uh, 12:22 you know, you can you can justify yourself in doing anything or say uh the Bible does teach to wear modest clothing. So, if the pastor says, you know, make sure your dresses cover your needs.
So, so maybe a woman says, well, I'm going to do a half inch above that. Am I going to hell? Am I going to hell over a half inch? and her friend says, "Well, if you're not going to hell, I'm going to go a half inch above that. I wouldn't go to hell over hash." You could argue your way out of any specific teaching. And you might say, whenever you apply the teaching of scripture, there's always some what you might say arbitrary. Um, because the Bible doesn't say exactly how long your dress would be before it's considered immodest or whatever. But at some point, you're evading the rule.
So the solution to that is not to ask is this heaven or hell but to ask is this pleasing God. Is this what love would say? Is this the best way to ex to fulfill my relationship with God? Is this the best way to be an example to my kids to the youth of the church to the new converts to the world that's looking for the church to to be an example to be different? And so I think for most of these issues, we should not say it's heaven or hell. We should say, are we living by faith? Are we living by love? And if this choice is not living by faith or we're not going to the higher standard or the higher teaching of love, then we shouldn't be doing it.
So we never get to the bottom line. Well, am I going to hell if I do this? We've already answered the question. Faith tells me what to do. Love tells me what to do and then I don't have to go any further. But if you are pressed to that point, I would say thankfully a lot of things I'm happy to leave in the hands of God because God will evaluate each person's life, their background. He knows how far they've come and where they're going. So I'm happy not to have to judge everything as heaven and hell. But I do believe our consequences will ultimately end with one place or the other.
So I would a I would answer the question with a question. Are you living by faith? Are you obeying the will of God as you know it? Are you obeying the scripture? If the answer is no, you're not living by faith. If you're not living by faith, where does that put you? You answer that question. And I think that's the best way to address these issues. So what we need to say because this question can also have the uh implication of minimizing certain things are necessary to follow certain things are optional to follow. Well I don't think wein Sign should regard anything in the word of God as optional to follow.
So I think we should take the word of God seriously and uh live by faith which causes us to obey. Live by love which causes us to rise higher than what we might regard as minimum requirements. And then this question becomes purely academic. We don't have to worry about it. In the ultimate analysis, all these choices could end up flowing into a heaven or hell situation. But thankfully uh many individual cases, God is merciful and gracious and will give us time to uh repent or time to understand uh time to realize the significance of our choices. But we should never presume on the grace of God.
We should simply live by faith, live by love, and live by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Scripture references as spoken: Hebrews 10:25; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:16-17; John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 11.