Transcript of a published teaching by David K. Bernard, transcribed from YouTube. An attributed primary source — not Acts 2:38 Life doctrine text.
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Summary
Summary prepared by Acts 2:38 Life from the transcript below — the preacher’s words follow in full.
Not Either/Or, but Both/And
- The question posed: the idea of divine calling is very important — we might hear a pastor say, 'God called me to this city,' or 'God called me to this church,' and that brings great comfort to the congregation, because they're assured this person isn't here just because they were hired, but because God put him there. A listener wrote in with a question: we talk about ministry callings, but he saw a church that was looking for a pastor, its opening made known like any other job. If God is the one who calls a pastor to a particular place, is it wrong for churches to make a pastoral opening known like we would any other job, and to go through a process?
- I would say briefly: no, it's not wrong. But I would say more broadly — as in many questions that we have — the answer is not either/or, but both/and. This question might pose a dichotomy: either God has called you, or a church has hired you — one is in opposition to the other; you can't have both. I would say it can be both. Let me give you some examples. We definitely believe in a call of God — a call to preach; you see this in the Bible: the apostles were called; the prophets were called. You see this in the ministry of Paul: even as he was deciding where to go in ministry, the Spirit forbade him to go to Bethnia; the Spirit said no, don't go here — but there was a call: go to Macedonia. So we as preachers need to feel like we definitely have a call to preach — but we also need to feel like we're called to this particular ministry, or this particular location, at our time of life. So absolutely, we need to feel that.
- However, at every stage, the call needs to be recognized by the church. God can call you to preach — but 1 Timothy and Titus talk about the qualifications for a preacher. How is that fulfilled? Well, in the UPCI, you meet a district board; they interview you; you have an application process; you have the recommendation of your pastor; you've had training and experience from your pastor; you get training from UPCI Ministry Central; and then the elders vote yes or no — and that's to get credentials, and also to be ordained. Hands are laid on you. So there's a call of God — but it has to be recognized by the church. You could be called to be a missionary, but if you want to go with UPCI support, you have to be approved by the Global Missions board. So even a local church: you may feel called to that church, but the church has to recognize it — and we do so by an interview process, and a screening process, and a preaching process, and a vote of the church.
Scriptures: 1 Timothy (book-only); Titus (book-only)
How a Church Discerns: The Process
- So typically, here would be an example: let's say a church is open — an established church. Then people will be invited to submit their resumes, just so we'll know who they are, and their background. And so the district superintendent, or the leader over the region, will go through these, and talk to the references of other pastors, other district superintendents; look at the qualifications; look at what the church needs; and then talk to the board, and say: 'Here are some options.' The board prays about it; the board analyzes it, discusses it. The church board says: 'We would like to hear these three preachers.' So those three preachers come, they preach, they're interviewed. And then the church board talks about it, and they try to say: 'Who is the one name that we feel like will have the most support?' They informally interview the congregation; and if they feel like there's a consensus, then they have an election on that one name. And if that one name gets — depending on the church, it could be a simple majority, or a two-thirds majority, required by the local bylaws. But in any case, I would recommend you need a strong consensus: I wouldn't want to take a church unless there was a two-thirds majority. And then they're elected.
- So you might say: well, that's not a spiritual process. But the challenge is, you have to have some mechanism, because the call has to be approved by the church — and especially by the people: this is going to be their pastor for many years, their children's pastor, so they need to have a say in that; they need to discern the will of God. I'll just give a simple example: when I was a leader over a region in the Austin area, a church in our area came open, and 50 people wanted to be pastor. Now, I don't know if all 50 felt a definite call; several did feel a call, or leading. So we believe in the call — but what if 50 people say, 'I'm called'? Do you have all 50 pastor? There has to be a process.
- Another example: sometimes a young man feels definitely impressed: God has shown me that's to be my wife. There's only one problem: the young woman has to recognize that calling. So if the young man recognizes a calling, but the young woman doesn't, you can't have a marriage. So you either have to say, 'Well, maybe I made a mistake,' or you have to pray until God shows it to the young woman. So even though it might be the call of God, or the will of God, and you're firmly convinced — you're not the only person that's affected, and you're not the only person who can make the decision: the other side has to. So in the case of pastoring a church: it's great that the pastor-to-be says, 'I feel called to this area' — but the church has to also feel that call. Or in my case, my wife and I felt called to start a church in Austin — but even there, the district board had to recognize that, and approve that. So even though we felt a calling, it had to be recognized by the church.
Ordinary Means: Nothing Wrong with the Process
- So I think, if all it was was a mechanical process, that would be wrong. But to facilitate a process of saying, 'We have an opening; we invite you to submit resumes' — which is, in essence, we're wanting to know if you're a good fit for the church; we're wanting to know your references; we're wanting to know your background; we want to know if we think it's a good fit, and we want you to feel it's a good fit. And just having someone preach one time — they might be preaching their best sermon, so to speak — that's not necessarily a complete judge of their ordinary preaching; nor is it actually a complete judge of their pastoral ability. So there has to be more than that. How do you discern that? Of course: interaction, fellowship, questions — again, their resume, their background, other churches — but there has to be the intangible witness of the Spirit.
- So I would say: the process that facilitates the gathering of information, and the connecting of people who are interested, with the need — there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't have to be supernatural: somebody doesn't have to give you a vision, to say so-and-so is looking for a pastor; it doesn't have to be a vision to the church board, saying John Doe is your pastor. It could be: God uses ordinary means to make connections. There's nothing wrong with that; that's not unspiritual; that's not against the call. It's just that the bottom line: yes, the pastor-to-be has to feel that call, and that confirmation — and the church likewise has to recognize, and affirm, that confirmation. So we're not denying the importance of a call, or recognizing the call — but we're saying there can be a process.
The Pattern in Scripture: Called by God, Sent by the Church
- Here's an example: Acts 13, in verse one. Now in the church that was at Antioch, there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas; Simeon, who was called Niger; Lucius; Manion, who had been brought up with Herod the Tetrarch; and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said: 'Now separate to me Barnabas and Saul, for the work to which I've called them.' Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. So it was definitely a call of God — the Holy Spirit — but that message of the Holy Spirit was recognized by the leadership, and these missionaries were sent by the church: the joint call of God, and recognition by the church.
- Let me give you one other example, in 1 Thessalonians 5:12 — a local church context: 'We urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you.' So: recognize them. There has to be a process of discerning: these are called of God; these are our pastors, and we need to follow them. But the church has to recognize that. Likewise, a few verses later, verse 21 — it's a more general statement: 'Test all things; hold fast what is good.' So there's nothing wrong with it: if somebody says, 'I feel a call of God' — they may be sincere, or insincere; they may have heard from God, or not heard from God; they may be sincere, but sincerely wrong. And so you, as the recipient, have to discern that: you have to test all things, and hold fast to what you have been able to test, and prove to be true.
- So I believe that definitely there must be a call of God; there must be the will of God. It has to be recognized jointly by the pastor and the church — or, in the case of a new start, by the pastor and the district board. It has to be recognized by the elders, or by the church. But there has to be a process of bringing the two together. So I don't think there's anything wrong with a stated process of how these two come together, and how they jointly recognize the call of God.
Scriptures: Acts 13:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Scripture index: 1 Timothy (book-only); Titus (book-only); Acts 13:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
Transcript
I would say briefly that no, it's not wrong. But I would say more broadly as in many questions that we have the answer is not either or but both and. So this question might pose this dichotomy. Well either God has called you or a church has hired you. One is in opposition to the other. You can't have both. I would say it can be both. And and let me give you some examples. We definitely believe in a call of God. A call to preach. You see this in the Bible. The apostles were called. the prophets were called. U you see this in the ministry of Paul even as he was deciding where to go in ministry that the spirit forbade him to go to Bethnia.
The spirit said no don't go here but that there was a call go to Macedonia. So I we as preachers need to feel like we definitely have a call to preach but we also need to feel like we're called to this particular ministry or this particular location at our time of life. So absolutely we we need to feel that. However, the at every stage the call needs to be recognized by the church. So God can call you to preach but first Timothy and Titus talk about the qualifications for a preacher. How is that fulfilled? Well in the UPCI you meet a district board. They interview you.
You have an application process. You have recommendation of your pastor. You've had training experience from your pastor. You get training from UPCI Ministry Central and then the elders vote yes or no and that's to get credentials and also to be ordained. Um hands are laid on you. So there's a call of God but it has to be recognized by the church. You could be called to be a missionary but if you want to go with UPCI support you have to be approved by the global missions board. Um so even a local church you may feel called to that church but the church has to recognize it and we do so by uh interview process and a screening process an interview process and uh preaching process and a vote of the church.
So typically here here would be an example. Uh let's say a church is open an established church. Then um people will be invited to submit their resumes just so we'll know who they are and their background. And so the district superintendent or the preser will go through these and talk to uh the references of other pastors, other district superintendents, look at the qualifications, look at what the church needs, and then talk to the board and say, "Here are some options." The board prays about it. The board analyzes it, discuss it. The church board says, "We would like to hear these three preachers." So those three preachers come, they preach, they're interviewed.
Um, and then the church board talks about it and they try to say, "Who is the one name that we feel like will have the most support?" They informally interview the congregation. And if they feel like there's a consensus, then they have an election on that one name. And if that one name gets depending on the church, it could be a simple majority or two-thirds majority uh required by the local bylaws. But in any case, I would recommend you need a strong consensus. So I I wouldn't want to take a church unless there was a twothirds majority. And then they're elected. So you might say, well, that's not a spiritual process.
But but the challenge is you have to have some mechanism because the call has to be approved by the church and especially by the people that they're going to sub that's going to be their pastorSign forin many years their children's pastor. So they need to have a say in that they they need to discern the will of God. I'll just give a simple example. When I was a prespter which means leader over region in the Austin area a church in our area came open and 50 people wanted to be pastor. Now I don't know if all 50 felt a definite call. Several did feel a call or leading.
Okay. So we believe in the call. What if pe 50 people say I'm called. Do you have all 50 pastor or so there has to be a process. I mean another example is sometimes a young let's say a young man feels definitely impressed. God has shown me that's to be my wife. There's only one problem. The young woman has to recognize that calling. So, if the young man recognizes a calling, but the young woman doesn't, you can't have a marriage. So, you either have to say, "Well, maybe I made a mistake." Or you have to pray until God shows it to the young woman.
So, even though it might be the call of God or the will of God and you're firmly convinced, you're not the only person that's affected and you're not the only person who can make the decision. The other side has to. So in the case of pastoring a church okay it's great that the pastor says the pastor to be says I feel called to this area but the church has to also feel that call or maybe in my case my wife and I felt called to start a church in Austin but even there the district board had to recognize that and approve that. So even though we felt a calling it had to be valid butated by the church.
So I think when um if all it was was a me mechanical process that that would be wrong. But to facilitate a process of saying we have an opening, we invite you to submit resumes, which is in essence, we're wanting to know if you're a good fit for the church. We're wanting to know your references. We're wanting to know your background. We want to know if we think it's a good fit and you we want you to feel it's a good fit. And just having someone preach one time, they might be preaching their best sermon, so to speak. that's not necessarily a complete judge of their ordinary preaching, nor is it actually a complete judge of their pastoral ability.
So, there has to be more than that. How do you discern that? Of course, interaction, uh, fellowship, questions, again, their resume, their background, other churches, um, but and there has to be the intangible witness of the spirit. So I would say the process that facilitates the gathering of information and the connecting of people who are interested with the need. There's nothing wrong. It doesn't have to be supernatural or somebody has to give you a vision to say so and so is looking for a pastor or doesn't have to be a vision to the church board saying John Doe is your pastor. It could be. So God uses ordinary means to make connections.
There's nothing wrong with that. That's not unspiritual. That's not against the call. It's just that the bottom line, yes, the pastor to be has to feel that call and that confirmation and the church likewise has to recognize and affirm that confirmation. So, we're not denying the importance of a call or recognizing the call, but we're saying there can be a process. Here's an example. Acts 13 in verse one. Now in the church that was at Antioch, there were certain prophets and teachers. Barnabas, Simeon, who was called Niger, Lucius ofSirene, uh, Manion, who had been brought up with Herod the Tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I've called them." Then having fasted and prayed and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
So it was definitely a call of God, the Holy Spirit. But that message of the Holy Spirit was recognized by the leadership and these missionaries were sent by the church. So the joint uh call of God and recognition by the church. Uh let me give you uh one other uh example in 1 Thessalonians 5:12 local church context. We urge you brethren to recognize those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you. So recognize them. There has to be a process of discerning these are called of God. These are our pastors and we need to follow them. But the church has to recognize that.
Um likewise down in this a few verses later, verse 21, it's a more general statement. Test all things, hold fast what is good. So there's nothing wrong with if somebody says, "I feel a call of God." They may be sincere or insincere. They may have heard from God or not heard from God. They may be sincere but sincerely wrong. And so you as the recipient have to discern that. You have to test all things and hold fast to what you have been able to test and prove to be true. So I believe that definitely there must be a call of God. Uh there must be the will of God.
It has to be recognized jointly by the pastor and the church or in the case of a new start by the pastor and the district board. It has to be recognized by the elders or by the church. But there has so there has to be a process of bringing them two together. So I don't think there's anything wrong with a a stated process of how these two come together and how they jointly recognize the call of God.
Scripture references as spoken: 1 Timothy (book-only); Titus (book-only); Acts 13:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.