Does Everyone Need a Pastor?

Summary

Summary prepared by Acts 2:38 Life from the transcript below — the preacher’s words follow in full.

Yes — pastors, in the context of Ephesians 4:11 and the local church

• The question posed (in the host's frame): what's so important about pastors? does every believer really need a pastor? how does this office fit, in the five-fold ministry? (The episode also carries an invitation, in Bernard's own voice, to the gathering it names — which stands verbatim-only, as episode furniture, not as part of the answer.) The host's question: many of us ('Ed us', as the letters stand), who've attended a church like ours (as the question styles it), for any length of time, have heard the statement: everyone needs a pastor. However, I will admit — I was a pastor, until coming here — but that exact statement is not found in the book (as the question grants). I have to admit that: in the passage the question cites, Paul references five Ministry offices (their list stands in the question). And he did not say that the pastor — at least in this context — he did not say the pastor is the most important, of the five. And some have used that, to insinuate, that maybe pastors really aren't essential. Or that at least they're no more essential, than the other four Ministry offices. how do you respond, to those arguments? does everybody need a pastor? And what about these other four Ministry offices? The answer: the short answer is: yes, we need Pastors. In the context of Ephesians, I think the fivefold ministry is speaking — of — the church at large. And all those offices are needed, in the body of Christ. But when we talk about a local church, the term Pastor more — is more focused on the local church. So: not every local church may have all the fivefold ministry, at all times. But they do need a pastor, or pastors. Now: in the New Testament, the term Pastor — meaning Shepherd — is used interchangeable, with the term elder, or presbyter. And also with the term overseer, or Bishop. Now: we, in subsequent church history, and even in our own churches today, we use Bishop — the term — for other types of roles, as well ('we use Bishop the turbish for other types of roles', as heard). And we use the term presbyter ('the term predator', as heard) for other roles. But at least, when you're reading the New Testament, you can pretty well say, that the leaders of the local church are considered to be pastors, or Elders, or Bishops. And they're spoken of, in the plural. Because in the first century, every believer in the city was said to belong to the same church — even though they attended different house churches. And it appears, that they had individual pastors, over each House Church. They didn't think of themselves as separate churches. They all thought of themselves as the same church. So when Paul wrote to the Church of God at Rome, all the Roman Christians considered themselves part of the church at Rome. However: when Paul gave his greetings, you can identify at least five house churches, that he referenced in Romans 16. And he identified the leaders, of some of those house churches. But the idea — and so today, we might regard the pastors, Elders, Bishops, as all the pastors of a city. Or we might regard them — a large church, with pastoral staff — where you might have a senior pastor, but several other pastors working alongside that senior pastor. That seems to be the biblical model, that we find.

Scriptures: Ephesians 4:11; Romans 16

Hebrews 13 — rule, submission, and their limits

• So, with that in mind, let me give you some scripture. In Hebrews chapter 13, verse 7 — I'm using the new King James (as he names the version): remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose Faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever — that's verse 8 (as he notes it). So evidently, there are certain people, who have leadership: they rule over you. It doesn't mean dictatorial Authority ('dictator toward Authority', as the letters stand). As we see in First Peter chapter five: we're not to be Lords, over God's Heritage. And it's not without accountability. It's not unilaterally. We follow leaders, as they follow the lord. So he says: remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you. So there are authorities, based on the word of God. So if a leader gets outside the word, we don't follow them. We don't follow leaders, into unethical conduct, false Doctrine, or sin. Whose Faith follow: again, as long as they're walking in the faith. Considering the outcome of their conduct: look at their life; see the fruit of their life, the result. Is it sinful? Is it — or Godly? Is it unethical, or is it ethical? And then, in the same chapter — Hebrews 13:17: obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy, and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. We, in our culture, don't like this concept of submission. Again: it doesn't mean dictatorial Authority. No Authority is absolute, except God. So we follow other leaders, as they follow the lord. And so: for — if — a spiritual leader gives you guidance, you should respect that. You should heed that. You should follow that. But at the end of the day, when it comes to your own personal decisions of life, you have to be accountable, to hear from God, and obey God. And so, when it comes time to get married, to take a certain job, to follow a certain career, to move to a certain city, to go to a certain School: while our leaders may give us Godly advice and guidance, we're the ones who make those personal decisions, for our own lives. So submission doesn't mean obeying someone, in every aspect of life. It means following their Godly leadership, and heeding their Godly advice. And the indication is: if you don't do this, then you're the one who is going to suffer. Okay: so there's definitely this idea, of people in your life — or someone in your life — who will guide you, who will rule over you, or Lead You, to whom you should be submissive.

Scriptures: Hebrews 13:7; Hebrews 13:8; 1 Peter 5; Hebrews 13:17

Esteem them; double honor — obviously, yes, we need pastors

• And then also, in first Thessalonians chapter 5 — speaking in the context of the local church, a particular church, that in thessalonica (as the name stands) — first Thessalonians 5:12: we urge you, Brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love, for their work's sake. So there are people, who are over you. They admonish you. We're to recognize them. And we are to esteem them. We're to honor them, in other words. So definitely, there are pastors — that's the term we normally use. There are several terms that could be used. But that's the term we use most commonly. And then let me give you another passage: first Timothy 5:17. It's in one of the Pastoral Epistles, so-called, because Paul was writing to pastors — Timothy and Titus — giving them instructions. For — so — first Timothy 5:17 (as he cites it): let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and Doctrine. For the scripture says: you shall not muzzle an Ox, while it Treads out the Grain. And the laborer is worthy of his wages. That was including verse 18 (as he notes). So we're to honor them — and double honor. So that includes respect, but also includes financial support, for their life and Ministry. So here are three passages, which show us, that in the local church, there are Elders — or pastors — who rule, who lead, who minister to us. And we are to follow them, to submit to them, to honor them, to respect them. So obviously: yes, we need pastors. And if someone rejects the idea of a pastor, there's something wrong with him ('or something wrong with him', as the letters stand). So we are to have a local church, be faithful to that local church, and to follow the leadership of that local church. Someone that just goes from church to church: that's not the will of God.

Scriptures: 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Timothy 5:17-18

Does a pastor need a pastor? — his own example

• Some may ask: well, what if you're a pastor? Do you still need a pastor? And I would say: a pastor is not an exception. But maybe a special case. Because there could come a time, where there is no one person, that you could look to, as a pastor. But still, you should have leaders, that you look to, for pastoral Authority in your life. Let me give you myself, as an example. So: growing up, my father was my pastor. Once I became an adult, I had two pastors, before I entered the ministry. And then I had two pastors, after I entered the ministry. But I was still working under a pastor, in a local church. And then — I'd be — became a pastor. Well: all four of those — well, counting my father, all five of the pastors I just mentioned — they've all passed away. So I can't look to any of them, as a pastor. So there's no one person, that had served formally, or served presently, in that particular role. However — and then, of course, my Ministry is such — although I'm not a pastor, I'm traveling and ministering, every week. So while I have a home Church in Austin, I'm only there a few times a year. And most of the times I'm there, I'm preaching. So I have to have leaders in my life. And since I'm the general superintendent, structurally there's no leader, that has a higher position. So I have to make myself accountable, to our general board, to our executive committee, to people in their respective areas of authority, and to peers — spiritual friends, that I've known for years, who knew me before I reached this position, who would have the right to talk to me, if they sensed a problem, or I could go to them, if I sensed a problem. So I'm suggesting, that even senior leaders need to have some kind of structure, of pastoral Authority, in their lives.

The closing distinction — honor and guidance, not veto power

• Now, I would say this: if these Concepts seem somewhat challenging, to anyone ('if these Concepts uh seen somewhat challenging', as the letters stand), I would simply say: look, we're not talking about anyone who has absolute, dictatorial Authority — absolute veto power over your life. We're talking about honor, respect, admonition, guidance, advice. But at the end of the day, each person has to have his, or her, own relationship with God. And you have to make the decisions, for your own life. You're accountable to do that. And actually, you don't want — a pastor shouldn't want to make those decisions. Because a pastor wants you to take responsibility, for your own decisions. Now: if this concept sounds frightening to you — I read, in Hebrews 13, this principle, of obeying those that have the rule over you. And I read the next verse — Hebrews 13:8 (in its own place, above): Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Is that just a throwaway line? Is that just irrelevant, out of context? Or is the Lord saying: well, there's a principle of authority. And by the way: Jesus Christ is the same. So while circumstances of life may change, culture may change, situations may change — this principle, of following Godly leadership, doesn't change. That's the way the Lord has established his church.

Scripture index: Ephesians 4:11; Romans 16; Hebrews 13:7; Hebrews 13:8; 1 Peter 5; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Timothy 5:17-18.