Is Charging or Earning Interest a Sin?

Summary

Summary prepared by Acts 2:38 Life from the transcript below — the preacher’s words follow in full.

The Old Testament prohibition in its context — the needy brother

• The question posed (in the host's frame): exodus (the verse as the question gives it) says: if you lend money to any of my people, who are poor among you, you shall not be like a money lender to him. You shall not charge him interest. And there are several other bible passages, that reiterate the same theme. God prohibited his people from charging interest on their money — at least, when they loaned it to a fellow israelite. So here's the problem, for those of us who live in the 21st century — at least in the west: our entire financial system, as you well know, is based on loaning money and collecting interest. And if the united states — if we tried to literally follow this policy, from the old testament — our economy would collapse. So the question for us, today, I guess, is: are we sinning, by putting our money in the bank, or in financial markets, with the intention of collecting a return on our investment? Or is it a sin, for financial institutions to charge interest? And how should a christian look at this, in light of our current circumstances? The answer: the short answer is no. And let's go back to the old testament. Yes, there are a number of passages that say — the king james version uses the term usury, which can mean simply interest. Or it can also mean excessive interest, which is usually how it's used in american law. But either way, I think the most important thing is to understand that those old testament teachings were given to ancient israel, that had a subsistence, or agrarian, economy. And what I mean by that is: almost everyone survived, by farming or crafts. And there had to be a few people that were merchants or shopkeepers. But basically, everybody raised food for their own family (a fused caption timestamp fragment is struck from this sentence by the recorded fix), and they traded with other families, for what they needed. So, in that context, what are you talking about? It's not talking about, in the modern sense of: I want to build a building, so I got to borrow money. Or: I want to buy a large house, so I'm going to borrow money. In ancient times, people built their own house. Or neighbors would come together, and build the house. A very simple structure. And so there wasn't the modern economy. There wasn't the business economy that we have. So you have to understand that command, in context. So what is it talking about? It's someone who's so poor, that they don't have food. And so they come to you, and they say: I've used up all my grain. It's three months before the harvest. I planted, but I've run out. My family has grown. Some of my food spoiled. I didn't have a good harvest. And I'm desperate. I'll pay you whatever, if you'll give me some grain, for the next three months. I'll pay whatever. And so the bible is saying: don't take advantage of your neighbor, your brother. Now, if it's some stranger passing through, charge interest — because you don't even need to be there (as the sentence stands). But if it's your own neighbor, your own brother: don't try to profit off of their suffering ('don't try to profit off with your suffering', as heard). Don't say: yeah, I'll give you food, but you got to pay me 20 interest. Because you're gouging them. You're taking advantage of their hardship. So don't — if you're gonna lend, just lend it straight across. And in three months, when his harvest comes in, he can give you that amount of grain back. So it's talking in the sense of: take care of your neighbors. Help them. If they have to borrow, let them borrow freely. Don't try to profit off of their need, or their crisis. So that's the context of that. And I think that's still relevant.

Scriptures: Exodus 22:25

Jesus goes further for the brother — and the parable of the talents for business

• In fact, jesus actually went more than that, in the sermon on the mount ('in the storm on the mount', as heard): he says, someone has to borrow — just give it to them. Now, again, put that in context. Does that mean: hey, brother moore (as he addresses the host in the hypothetical), you believe in jesus, right? I need a thousand bucks. Can I borrow a thousand bucks? Well, wait a minute. In fact, I expect you to give that to me, because I'm your brother, and jesus said if somebody asked to borrow, just give it to them. No: it would be in the same context. If I say: brother moore, I've run out of money. I'm struggling. I'm a home missions pastor. Could you just — could you loan me a hundred dollars? And whenever I can earn it, I'll give you that hundred back. And what would you say? I'll give you the hundred dollars. Don't forget about that ('i'm not gonna done you as my brother', as the letters garble the middle of the reply). You know — you're my brother. You're in need. You're struggling. You're trying to do god's work. I have a hundred dollars. You don't. I'll give you the hundred dollars. So that same principle: it still applies ('it's still a pr apply', as heard). But that doesn't mean I would say: you know, I'm thinking about starting a business. I need a thousand bucks. I need 10 people to give me a thousand bucks, so I can start this business, make lots of money. But don't charge interest. In fact, I'd just like for you to give it to me. So you can easily see where you take it out of context. Now, you might say: well, that's some fancy footwork here. That's not really true. Well, I'll give you jesus christ — matthew (the chapter as he gives it). Jesus gives the parable of this — this owner, this rich person, who gives some money. Talents. But that's a currency — or that, you know, that's metal currency, money. And he gives five talents to one. And two talents. And one talent. So he comes back, from his journey. The man with five talents has multiplied it, with ten (a fused caption timestamp fragment is struck from this sentence by the recorded fix). So apparently he's done business, trading. The man with two has multiplied it to four. And the man with only one says: well, I knew you would be very strict. So I just kept it, and hid it, so I wouldn't lose it. Here it is, back. And the lord — the master — rebuked him. And of course sent him into punishment. Because: you, by your own admission, say I'm a hard taskmaster. I expect a return on my investment. I expect my servants to work hard. Well, you should have put the money at the bank, and earned interest. At least, if you weren't enterprising like these other people, and started a business, and doubled your money. And, you know, you weren't aggressive, and going out, and traded, bartered ('traded barred', as heard), and, you know, increased. At least you could have earned a 10 return, by going to the bank (the percent as he frames it). Now, jesus would never tell that parable, if it was sinful. Okay? He is actually, in the parable — he's recommending: at least, you could have earned interest. So we know, in a business context, jesus himself said: yes, it's appropriate to invest your money, and earn interest. In fact, that's the least you can do. That's the safe thing you can do. So: if we are in the ancient, agrarian, or personal context — of helping a needy brother — right, we shouldn't charge interest. In fact, we probably should just give it, if we can. But if we are in a business context: there's nothing wrong, with earning interest.

Scriptures: Matthew 25

Interest as renting money — and the church loan fund

• Now, looking at it from an economic point of view, think of it this way. Interest is just the cost of borrowing money. So everything has a cost, of using something. And so interest is just what you're paying, to rent money. So, for instance: let's say you have a second home. Or maybe even you just have a garage apartment, or something. And you say — and I say: look, I'd like to live there. And you say: okay, fine. And you charge me rent. Would that be unfair? No. But that is — that rent is the cost of using that house. Because you could do other things with the house. You could use it yourself. And anyway, you're going to have to pay something, in utilities, wear and tear, repairs, maintenance, mowing the yard, whatever. So the rent is just the reasonable price, for using your property. So nobody would think it's wrong, for you to charge rent. In fact, everybody would think it's wrong, if I expect to live in your house for a year, and not pay you anything. Okay: interest is this — renting money. So I have a thousand dollars. I could invest it. I could start a business. I could buy a thousand dollars worth of supplies, turn around and sell them, and make profit. But instead, I'm going to let you use it, for a while. So that you can use that money. And you can go into business. And you can buy some things, and resell them at a profit. Well, if you're using my money to make a profit: isn't it reasonable that you share just a little bit of that profit, with me? Because you're using my money, for a whole year. I could be making a profit. I could probably be making more profit than interest. But for whatever reason — either I don't want to risk, or I want to help you out, or I figure, if I do this a lot of people, I'll come out ahead — so I'm letting you use my money, for a whole year. So that you can make money. Well, that's the cost, of you renting that money. Or, another way: you're just giving me a small part of your profits, back to me. It's like we went in business for ourselves — but you got 90 of the profits, I only got 10 of the profits (as the figures stand). So if you look at it as the cost of renting money, or as a partnership — where somebody who has money is contributing the money, to the partnership, while the other guys are contributing the labor ('why are the other guys contributing', as heard) — well, then you can see that interest: there's nothing nefarious. There's nothing dishonest. It's not like getting money for nothing. It's not like gouging someone. It's not like preying on someone. It's actually just a business deal. Now, here, I'll give you a good example. The united pentecostal church has a loan fund, which we use. And we've blessed hundreds of churches, that they've been able to buy property, building — or renovate property, building — or refinance, and lower the rate. So here's the point. Churches, typically, in our culture: they need a place to worship. And over time, the best, and most efficient way — a most productive way — is to own their own building, if they can. And I can speak, as a former pastor: having a building represented the growth of our church. And in fact, by owning a building, we were able to increase our size. Or to create — increase missions giving. In fact, during my time, we ended up giving as much to missions, as we paid for our building. But we could have never grown, to give that much to missions ('to give that much to business', as heard at this point), if we hadn't had a building. So it was like a tool, that enabled us to grow. And even from a financial perspective, it enabled us to invest in the kingdom of god, in world missions. So it's just a tool. But to get that, I had to borrow money. So I had to pay interest, to secular people. Well, now, under the loan fund: we're not gouging our brothers. But you can pay to the loan fund. The loan fund will turn around, and reinvest that same money, into the next guy who wants it. And if it does end up with a little profit — because they have to pay costs, so that interest is not just free money, you have to pay a lot of associated costs, for operating all that. But let's say you come out ahead. Well, then they donate to more ministries. So, which would you rather do? As a church, you need a building, as a tool — so you can grow, so you can give to missions, so you can win souls. But to have that tool, you got to pay money, to a bank. And they're — the sinners are going to profit off of it ('the centers are going to profit', as heard). Well, instead, you could give that money to the church. You know, think of it as a donation, if you want. And the church, in turn, will service that. The church will use that same money, to help other churches buy their buildings. And if there's anything left over, the church — the loan fund — will give to a missions program. So now, your money is actually being reinvested, to benefit the kingdom of god. Well, that's totally not the concern, in the old testament, of gouging your brother. Actually, it's a mutual benefit, where we're partnering together, to grow the kingdom of god. So in that context, I think god would — if he would admonish that one servant, for not making more money — I think he would commend us, for using our money, instead of giving it to the secular system, to give it —

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Scripture index: Exodus 22:25; Matthew 25.