How to Talk to a Trinitarian

Summary

Summary prepared by Acts 2:38 Life from the transcript below — the preacher’s words follow in full.

Know what we believe — the Oneness of God in two propositions

• The question posed (in the host's frame): throughout the course of your ministry, you've had opportunities to debate, and discuss, the subject of the godhead, with many trinitarians. And, by the way: for those who are listening to this podcast, they can listen to, or watch, some of those debates and discussions (the frame points to where they are posted). As the general superintendent (the office the frame names), you have been called upon — and, as well as not just the general superintendent, but you're also a leading Oneness Pentecostal scholar (as the frame styles him) — you've been charged with representing the Oneness Pentecostal movement, in a variety of settings. What principles have guided your discussions, in your interactions with trinitarians? And what advice do you have, for the members of this audience — whether they're a lay member, a pastor, who's interacting with other trinitarians, with trinitarian pastors, leaders, or people around them — particularly when they're discussing theological disagreements? The answer: well, first of all, let me just give you some resources. My basic book on the subject is called the Oneness of God (as titled in the answer). And the sequel — which goes more into detail, in key passages of scripture ('in key passag of scripture', as spoken) that are often used by trinitarians — is the Oneness view of Jesus Christ (as titled). Now, if someone wants a scholarly study — which uses technical terms, and interacts with latest scholarship — my doctoral thesis: the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (as titled). And that is also available through Pentecostal publishing, as well as directly from the publisher, Brill ('from the public lisher which is Brill', as the letters stand). So those are some resources, on the doctrine of God — the Oneness of God. But let's talk about how we interact with trinitarians. So, first, I would say: we need to have a clear understanding, of what we believe, and what scripture teaches. So we need to have a clear understanding, of what we mean by the Oneness of God. The Oneness of God essentially has two propositions. First of all: there is one God, with no distinctions in his eternal essence. No persons, or centers of Consciousness. Manifestations, Works — yes: we believe in the father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But at the end of the day, we believe in one personal god, with one personality, one Center of Consciousness. And that's established in Deuteronomy 6:4 (as he cites it — 'Deuteronomy 64' in the letters), as well as many other passages. I'll hasten to add: some trinitarians really come almost to that same point. There's a strong debate, within trinitarianism: whether there is one Center of Consciousness, or three centers of Consciousness. But we would Clearly say: there's one Divine Center of Consciousness. (The host's one follow-up — whether the majority is on one side or the other of that debate — stands in the verbatim layer only. Bernard's reply:) You know: if you look at a lay level, the majority doesn't know. And probably — I would say, in my interaction with the average lay person — the most common reactions are: it's a mystery; I don't know. Or: you know, now that you explain it, that's the way I see it. Only a small minority would be adamant trinitarians. And that's usually because they've been trained that way. Or because they've had encounters with Oneness people ('one his people', as heard), and they're trying to distinguish themselves clearly. There's a common expression, that goes back to Early times: that the Trinity is a mystery. So if you try to understand the Trinity, you lose your mind. But if you deny the Trinity, you lose your soul. So, in other words: don't try to investigate; just believe it. But — so, let me go back to the first point. So we have to understand the Oneness Doctrine. And it has two parts. The first part: there's one God, with no distinction of persons, no distinctions in his eternal Essence. But the second part is: Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the one God. He is the Son of God — which means, the one true God manifested In the Flesh. He's both human, and divine. So there is a human self-consciousness (the formulation as it stands in the answer). Or — maybe I would not say Center, but I would say: he had both Divine and human self-consciousness, within his one nature. And that's a big subject. That is a mystery: The Mystery of the Incarnation. Not a mystery of God. Which I think I've discussed that before. But the concept of Jesus being the Son of God, and true human, is very important. But for our purposes, right now: we would emphasize, that Jesus is the one true God incarnate. That all the fullness of the godhead dwells in him. So Jesus is the manifestation, and revelation, of the father. Jesus is the son of God. The holy spirit is the spirit of Jesus. So my first main point is: you have to understand the Oneness of God, with its various nuances, as I've just described, in two parts.

Scriptures: Deuteronomy 6:4

Know what trinitarianism says — and press the questions

• The second thing I would say is: you need to understand trinitarianism. Which we kind of started. But the doctrine of the Trinity ('the doct of the Trinity', as spoken) is: that there's one God, in three persons. Now, we often hear them as speaking of three gods. And indeed, we can press them: the logic of your position would lead you to three Gods. Which directly contradicts Deuteronomy 6:4 (in its own place above), and hundreds of other passages. But they deny they mean that. So I think, at least, we can't just say: trinitarianism believes in three Gods. We have to at least take them at their word, and try to reason with them, and show the problem. So they say: there's one God, but three Persons. Of course, the trick is: what do you mean by person? And if you mean, like, a self-conscious being — as in colloquial Modern English — well, that is three gods. And that is a direct contradiction, of scripture. But if you mean, on the other hand, manifestations: well, that's the Oneness position. So: trinitarians — one good way to talk to them is: what do you mean by person? And another way to ask that is: oh, so when you get to heaven, are you going to see three persons, on three Thrones? If you say yes — well, that's three Gods. You just contradicted what you claimed. Moreover, it contradicts scripture ('it contct scripture', as the letters stand). Because Revelation 4 says: there's one on the throne. There's one throne, and one on the throne. And in revelation 22, we actually know who that is. The one, on the one Throne, is called God, and the lamb. But not as two beings, sitting side by side, on one Throne — or in one another's lap. But: God — the lamb — is one being ('but God the lamb is one being', as spoken), with one name, one face. That's — you see, Jesus Christ. He's the one true God, who — according to his human identity — was sacrificed for our sin, as the lamb. So the Book of Revelation is clear: there's one God, on one Throne. He's going to be revealed, as Jesus Christ. So that's — so I found a good way, to ask the trinitarians: what do you believe? One God, three persons? And so there's this tension. And they'll usually say: it's a mystery. You say: okay — but who are you praying to? Do you spend five minutes to the father, five minutes to the son, five minutes to the Holy Spirit? Well then, you have three gods. But if you just pray in Jesus name, to one God — you know, maybe you are more like us. When you get to heaven: if you're going to see three different beings, on three Thrones — that's three gods; that contradicts scripture. If you're going to see one: who is that one? And if you say Jesus — well, now you're more Oneness, than a trinitarian. And I press them on that. Because many — sometimes they'll say: I don't know. And we say: well, it's okay if we don't know all things, about heaven, and the future, and the last things. But you mean, you don't know who you're going to see? You don't know who you're praying to? You don't know who you're worshiping? You don't have a clear understanding. If you look at trinitarian artwork: they'll have an old man, a young man, and a dove. Is that literal? Is that — you go to heaven — you're going to see an old man, a young man, and a dove? And you're going to worship the dove — the animal? Or sometimes the artwork has three identical men. Or one person — one male, or man, figure — with three faces. Well, of course, these are probably all symbolic. But what I'm saying is: in just talking to them, you need to understand what they say. But then use that, to press them: what do you really believe?

Scriptures: Revelation 4; Revelation 22

The Golden Rule — respect, common ground, not anti- but non-

• Now, my third point — and I'll be careful here. In saying — talking about this, as fellow — unbelievers? ('as fellow on Believers', as the letters stand) — it's — some of this can be a little humorous. But I don't mean to be disrespectful. We're going to approach trinitarians: we have to approach, with respect. The Golden Rule: Matthew 7:12 (as he cites it — 'Matthew 712' in the letters). Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you ('do unto others if you as you would have them do unto you', as the saying stands). So: you seek to hear them. To understand them. To find common ground, where you can agree. And then respectfully disagree. Don't deny, that they may have genuine Faith. Genuine love for God. So you're not trying to win an argument. But you're trying to win a soul. Or you're trying to, at least, create a bridge, where there's a common understanding — that maybe you can lead them, to further truth. So that should be your attitude ('your attitude ude', as the letters stand). A lot of times, I like to say this: I'm not an anti-trinitarian. I'm a non-trinitarian. What do I mean by that? My mission is not to fight against the Trinity. It is true: I'm not a trinitarian, in the classical sense. I don't believe one God is three distinct persons. But that doesn't mean I'm anti- — people who are trinitarian. And in fact, I Don't Preach against the Trinity. I preach for the truth, as I see it in scripture. So when I preach, I'm never attacking the trinity. I'm just preaching the themes of scripture: one God. Jesus Christ, God manifest In the Flesh. Son of God. Power in the name of Jesus. People respond — whether they're trinitarians, or Oneness: they respond ('they un respond', as the letters stand) to the message of scripture. They believe it. They respond to it. They repent. They're baptized Jesus name. They receive the Holy Ghost. Now, sometimes, when I'm doing detailed teaching, I may — as a teaching tool — say: here's what we believe. And here's a contrast, to trinitarianism, to show the difference. And here's the scripture, that will show why these trinitarian concepts are erroneous. So it's not, you know — so there will be times, I'll explain the error of trinitarianism. But my basic point is not to be against the Trinity. Because I don't even believe there is a trinity. My point is to be for the doctrine of God, and for the identity of Jesus Christ, as the one true God, manifest In the Flesh. So that's the approach. And if you're going to have a discussion, that you want to persuade ('that you want to Pur persuade', as the letters stand): you try to find the common ground. What can we agree on? There's one God. Jesus is truly God. But now let's press the points of disagreement. Is the fullness of the godhead in Jesus, as Colossians 2:9 States? Or is he just one of three different persons? Who are you going to see, in heaven? Three, or one? And if you're going to see one: who's the one? Do you think there are three different Spirits, or one Spirit? Can you feel the presence of the father, one side of the room — and presence of the Son, over here ('presence of the sun over here', as heard) — and the presence of the spirit? Or is there one Spirit, one presence? If so: in what meaningful sense, are there three different persons? So I have a number of questions, in my book — The Oneness of God (as titled above) — that try to press into that, a little bit more. But my basic thought would be: we find Common Ground. If you believe there is one God. You believe Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God — meaning, God manifest In the Flesh. He's our Lord, and savior. If you're willing to repent, of your sins. If you're willing to open your heart, to receive the Holy Spirit. And then we show them — as we've discussed, other podcasts — about the truth, of water baptism, in Jesus name.

Scriptures: Matthew 7:12; Colossians 2:9

Lead them to Acts 2:38 — growth follows obedience

• I do believe: even if someone doesn't have a completely comprehensive, or accurate, understanding of God — they can still believe Jesus, as Lord and Savior. And Obey Acts 2:38 (as he cites it — 'acts 238' in the letters). So that's how children in our ranks are saved. That's how most visitors, who come and are saved — most of them don't intellectually go through, a lengthy understanding, of changing from Trinity to Oneness ('don't intellect go through a a lengthy understanding of changing', as the letters stand). They just respond, in faith, to the message. And I think they're saved. Thereafter — According to second Peter 3:18 (as he cites it): grow in grace, and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So these things are very important. But — and maybe for some, before they're willing to be baptized in Jesus name, they have to have complete comprehensive understanding. And that's fine. But my point would be: to lead people to faith in Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior, Son of God, God manifest in the flesh ('God manifest flesh', as spoken). Lead them to obey Acts 2:38 (in its own place, in this section). And when they do, they're filled with the spirit. Jesus said: the spirit is given, to lead and guide, into all truth. So really, you're going to be more productive: if someone will obey Acts 2:38 (in its own place, in this section), it will be easier to lead them, further into truth. Now, as I said: sometimes we may need to have this discussion, to get them to that point. And that's perfectly fine. But if that's the case, we have to keep our end goal in mind. We want to treat them with respect. We want to see where they are, and show them the inadequacies of their position. But lead them to a more full understanding. Building on the positive things they have. But lead them into a fuller understanding. Knowing that ultimately, God has to Enlighten them. Open their understanding. So they can see the truth of scripture, for themselves. And then they will get a clear — we call it a revelation. And we don't mean an extra biblical Revelation. But we mean a personal enlightening, and opening of our understanding, to understand what the Bible teaches, about God, and about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Scriptures: Acts 2:38; 2 Peter 3:18

Scripture index: Deuteronomy 6:4; Revelation 4; Revelation 22; Matthew 7:12; Colossians 2:9; Acts 2:38; 2 Peter 3:18.